Welcome to the Chief Brand podcast.
Today I’m talking to Greg Hahn, co-founder and Chief Creative Officer of Mischief at No Fixed Address.
Mischief been named an Adweek Agency of the Year every year it's been eligible. Campaign named it the No. 1 US agency twice.
Before Mischief he ran creative at BBDO New York and made it the most awarded agency on the planet according to The Gunn Report.
Personally, Greg has two Emmys, a pile of Cannes Grand Prix, Best of the Decade at The One Show, and in 2024 he was named both Ad Age's Chief Creative Officer of the Year and Campaign's Creative Person of the Year. He has also won the New Yorker caption contest.
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Morgan: On your website you say that meowing has an edge, that it stays with you after the music has left. Where does that come from, and why is the cat the spirit animal of Mischief?
Greg: It comes from Mama Cass’s recording of Hound Dog. At the end of the song you can hear the musicians barking. It’s a novelty thing. One of them, an old blues man, was asked how they came up with it, and he said he wanted to meow, but that was too hip for them.
Tom Robbins brings it up in an article - he’s one of my favorite writers. The point is that barking at the end of a song called Hound Dog is creative, but it isn’t unexpected. It’s just clever enough that you think you’re buying into something really creative. To meow is a whole sense of mystery. It throws the thing into a different perspective, and it stays with you long after the song ends, because you’re curious. It’s an unexpected choice and it works.
So that’s our motive. When the rest of the world is satisfied with the bark, Mischief meows.
Morgan: Is that something you carry into client work? Looking for the unexpected thing?
Greg: The name is Mischief, so we’ve set ourselves up as a brand that’s going to do stuff that’s unexpected and playful and might change the chemistry in your head a little bit, in a good way. The clients we attract are coming to us for that.
A lot of it comes from the process being collaborative. We take clients through all the thinking and build it with them. So when we show them the quote-unquote crazy execution, it isn’t crazy. It’s inevitable. It just isn’t expected.
Morgan: You’ve said the riskiest thing a brand can do is be ignorable. Where’s the line between unignorable and cringy? Because “please don’t make us cringy” is something I hear constantly on calls with executives.
Greg: That comes down to taste. Our clients have the right kind of taste. That’s what they pay us for, honestly.
Morgan: How do you actually get to the work?
Greg: Our process is simple. First what to say, then how to say it. We spend a lot of time on the first part. That’s sharpening the strategy, the input, the data, arriving at a message that’s interesting and true and insightful. And we build that with the client.
Then we can go to town on execution, because execution can push if what you’re saying is true and insightful and drives the business. We spend a lot of time on the rational parts so we can have some fun with the irrational parts. One leads to the other.
Morgan: A lot of people reading this are trying to build their executive brand. You’ve got guitars behind you right now, and a rockstar look. Do you think about how you look and carry yourself as part of that?
Greg: I hope it doesn’t feel contrived. That’s the secret. Don’t force something you’re not, or try to manufacture an image you want to project to the world. It has to actually be you.
Feel comfortable in the image you’re putting out and the things you write. Be yourself. Be human.
I kind of like that people underestimate me because I don’t look professional. I’ll go check into an office to visit a CEO or a CMO, some big office building, and one time they sent me to the freight elevator because they thought I was the delivery guy.
I actually like that, because now all I have to do is prove I’m worthy of being there, which is a low bar. I’ve already exceeded expectations.
Morgan: Almost every C-suite person I talk to says please don’t make me do this (get more visible online). Is it easy for you to put yourself out there?
Greg: I see it as a creative outlet. I also use LinkedIn to bring awareness to the agency, and it isn’t just me. I rarely post stuff that’s only about me. It’s mostly our philosophy, how we work, things that might impact the industry and that people can learn from.
As long as you’re giving something back, the pressure’s off. It’s not Instagram.
Morgan: If you had to sum up your personal brand in a word or a phrase, what is it?
Greg: Oh, gosh. Probably should have thought about that. I’d like to think individual. Independent. Since I was a kid I’ve followed my own thing and didn’t look around too much to see what everyone else was doing.
Morgan: There’s a line I came across, don’t try to be the best, be the only. Is that the same idea?
Greg: I think so, and that would be my advice. It applies whether you’re trying to break in or you’re running a business. Find the unique thing. The problem you’re solving in a way nobody else is solving it. What you can bring to the party that no one else can.
Morgan: So what is Mischief the only one of? There are thousands of agencies out there.
Greg: We’re particularly good at giving unfair attention to brands. Doing things people don’t skip over.
The thing that gets overlooked is how strategic and effective we are. Our creative department gets a lot of love, and it should, because some of the best people on the planet are in it. But we work hand in hand with strategy and account. It’s the back end stuff, the buttoned up stuff nobody sees, that makes a creative agency great.
Morgan: You used the phrase unfair advantage, tell me more about that.
Greg: Creativity is the last illegal unfair advantage brands have.
Morgan: What would you tell a leader who wants that advantage? Someone who wants more visibility?
Greg: Hire Mischief.
Morgan: Well, yes. That’s a no brainer.
Greg: No, I’d say find out what you want to say first, then focus on how to say it in the most interesting way. When I see executions go wrong, it usually isn’t the execution. The message was off.
Morgan: I hear “I don’t want to be famous, I don’t want to be salesy” all the time. Are there real disadvantages to a C-suite person getting more visible?
Greg: I don’t personally see many. If you’re not comfortable with it, then don’t do it. Just understand there’s a trade-off, which is that you won’t get some of the eyeballs you’d get if you were putting yourself out there.
Part of our philosophy at Mischief is to be known before you are needed. So when the need comes up, you’re automatically on the list. That’s the exponential value of fame. People have already heard of you before the need arrives.
And then someone else’s good luck becomes your good luck. If one of your potential clients suddenly gets a job at a new company and they’re looking for an agency, you’re already known to them.
Morgan: A lot of leaders tell me they’re not creative. They don’t know how to be funny. How do you get people over that?
Greg: Don’t think about being funny. Think about being true. The truth is always more interesting than humor, and a lot of humor starts with the truth anyway.
So don’t worry about being funny. Be true. True to the facts, true to what you want to say, true to yourself. That’s what I mean by be the only. Put it in your voice. You’ll start getting comfortable with who you’re supposed to be online.
Morgan: Did you know early on that you were creative?
Greg: I think so. I was never the jock or the homecoming king. I was off in my corner drawing cartoons or writing stuff. I always knew I wanted to do something creative. I just didn’t know about advertising specifically until college.
Morgan: What have you built into Mischief so that it survives you?
Greg: We have a killer executive leadership team beyond me, so the succession piece is strong. Everybody is really strong.
Equally important, we have a list of principles and values everyone knows. They’re on our website. As long as we stay true to those, we stay true to Mischief. Culture is the most important thing a company has, and we’re vigilant about protecting ours.
Morgan: Culture is a word that gets thrown around a lot. What’s the actual foundation of it there?
Greg: The key phrase, and it’s what our sister agency No Fixed Address was founded on too, is this: what would you do if you weren’t afraid?
Take fear out of the room and see what possibilities open up. The agency business has been run on fear and playing defense for a long time. Mischief was built to play offense.
That also means bringing things to clients that might make for a bad meeting. That’s okay. Bad meetings are precursors to better meetings sometimes. You have to go through that to understand what’s actually happening in people’s heads. Don’t be afraid of what you think you should do, because that holds us back from a lot of great answers.
Morgan: What brings you the most joy day to day?
Greg: Watching our teams develop solutions that are so obvious, but only after we do them. Where you go, how did no one ever think of that? It’s the only right answer and it’s completely unexpected. The joy is in coming up with something and not being able to wait for the world to see it.
Morgan: Do you have daily habits that keep you sane and productive and refreshed?
Greg: You’re assuming a lot of things in that question. :)
I think it’s keeping yourself exposed. Understanding what’s happening in the culture and the environment, and really digging into the problem you’re solving. I love puzzles. I love finding answers. That’s the joy for me. What’s the most elegant answer to a complex problem?
Morgan: I find that stepping outside and watering my plants for a few minutes does more than another block of time at the screen.
Greg: One hundred percent. Every creative should do that. You’d be surprised how many times you’ve been banging on a computer, and then you go for a walk and it comes to you. That’s how we’re wired. You need to fire off different neurons to get different ideas.
Morgan: What’s exciting to you over the next few years?
Greg: A book has always interested me, whether that’s a business book or a trashy airport novel. It just seems like something fun to do. I tried to write one and couldn’t get past 20,000 words.
For Mischief, we focus on impact, and it takes three forms. First, impact on our clients’ business, which is the most important thing while we’re here. Second, impact on culture. We like to do stuff that’s seen by a lot of people, not just industry people. I love when your cousin or someone from high school sends you something Mischief did without knowing we did it. Third, impact on the industry. That’s probably where my focus goes later in my career. How do we make Mischief a legacy agency?
David Ogilvy said something I love. Compete with the immortals. The bar is very high, but shoot for it.
Morgan: Do things that are legendary.
Greg: Even the little things. Do they add up to something greater than you? You don’t have to do the one legendary thing. Just create a path for others to follow. Maybe that’s the legacy.
Morgan: Are there brands you really respect right now?
Greg: The ones that usually get talked about. Liquid Death gets mentioned a lot and it should. Apple, obviously, we all use them as an example.
Virgin has always done it. No matter where they go, you know what to expect. It makes sense for them to enter a category and you know the experience is going to be a Virgin experience.
Bands do a pretty good job of this too. Look at the White Stripes. That’s a brand. Everything about it. And it’s authentic.
Morgan: What are your favorite bands?
Greg: I haven’t progressed much since my grunge and metal days. White Stripes, Nirvana, anything of that era. I grew up worshiping Van Halen. That was my band. Not the Sammy Hagar version, mind you. The David Lee Roth version. I was a metalhead back in the day and kind of still am.
It’s interesting to study how bands brand themselves. Even the extreme ones like Iron Maiden or Sabbath.
Morgan: My son loves rock bands. Friends, not so much. They only know individual artists.
Greg: Gen Z is discovering bands. My daughter is a huge fan of everything I am. When she was in second grade they had to bring in their favorite song. Everyone brought in kids songs. My daughter brought in Ice Cream Man by Van Halen. Her teacher emailed me and said your daughter has really good taste in music.
My God, she does. Come on.
Morgan: Any final words for leaders who are afraid to take the jump into something risky?
Greg: As long as you believe in what you’re doing, don’t let anything stop you. If you put something out there and it gets exposure, some people are going to hate you. Prince said if you don’t want to get booed, play in your garage.
You always believe the negative ones more than the positive ones. Don’t worry about it. If what you’re saying is true to you and you want to say it, put yourself out there. Take a chance.
Morgan: When the Sidney Sweeney American Eagle campaign was running, I put myself in a jean jacket and posted it on LinkedIn. I got shredded in the comments. It was pretty ugly.
Greg: If it’s something you thought was a good idea and you enjoyed the experience, then you won.
Morgan: I had a CEO call me from Louisiana and ask if I was the guy who poses with Sidney Sweeney on LinkedIn. I said I guess I am.
Greg: Quote unquote personal brand is like that. And maybe that makes you different from everybody else.
Morgan: Thank you so much for talking with me.
Greg: No problem. Great being here.
That’s the first episode of the new Chief Brand format. Listen to the whole thing here.
